Divers and helpers on dredges

[easy goer]

How much do divers make for operating dredges ? Helpers ? I know every situation is different but have any of you ever hired or been hired to do this type of work?
Example : You own the claim, equipment and cover all expenses. Share of the box? Hourly wage? What is the norm.

If any of you have hired divers how did you address potential liability ? Independent contractor? Employee?

I see the guys on TV shows and they never cover what the divers and hands make. The main difference being that they are being paid to be on TV! This assumes no cameras following you around, what you pay is all they get.

Anyone ever reduced this type of agreement to paper? Care to share a copy?

Thanks,

Easygoer

[Micropedes1]

Customarily they are paid a percentage of the gross, from 10%-25%. It really depends upon how trustworthy and how indispensable they are. Plus how many hours on the nozzle per day. The incentive is there to get them to work harder for YOU.

If you really cannot do without them, pay them what they are worth and avoid problems later. Of course, proven high-grading....

[Micropedes1]

When dredging big rivers with larger dredges, we usually run a 3-man crew. One on the nozzle, one tossing cobbles, one tending sluice topside. We rotate positions every few hours; everybody works.

My dredge, my claims, usually my camp, food, and transportation. Means I get a larger percentage of the gross. Each crew shares an equal percentage of the remainder, including me, if I am one of that crew.

Hope that makes sense.

[Jim_Alaska]

All good answers Glen and right on the money. I would add that experience, proficiency and demonstrated work ethic are all indispensable.

Owners will occasionally take on an inexperienced hand and train them in the different aspects of the operation. But that hand should not expect to be paid on a scale of an experienced hand. Production and efficiency is the name of the game; you get paid for your experience, knowledge and work ethic.

A couple of "for instances" should suffice for the inexperienced. Very few dredge crews posses a crew in which every hand is at the same level of proficiency. No single position is less important than another. I will list what I require in my operations, understand that every dredger is different. My working with a crew is extremely limited. Most of my dredging was done alone or with only a rock man. Some examples:

1. Nozzle man:: Must be experienced in fast water conditions in a dredging environment. i.e. weight needed, body position in relation to flow, ability to sink a sample hole quickly and methodically, experience with different and changing riverbed material, ---everything that goes up the hose is not the same. ---Knows and understands the "water to material" ratio for best recovery as well as speed. ---Doesn't take chances sucking up "iffy flat rocks" that will block flow in the hose or jet log, thus losing production. ---Knowledge of proper positioning and/or anchoring of suction hose in fast water. ---Never lays the nozzle down with only clear water running through it. If he needs to lay the nozzle down he will do it in a fashion that some material is always entering the nozzle. To not do so has the capacity to clean out the riffles. He must be extremely aware of his surroundings, paying attention to where his rock man is in case he has to trow a rock himself. Be aware that large rocks and boulders can and will fall out, a danger to both nozzle man and rock man. Safety first, be aware.

I feel the need to take a minute to address boulders. If you take a hole apart properly you will work from top to bottom in "cuts". This allows you to see any boulder before it becomes a problem and lets you plan for its removal. Unfortunately many if not most dredgers will just take a hole apart haphazardly. Some even work from the bottom and allow material to just slide down the hole sides to the nozzle. This is the lazy way and can be very dangerous. If you uncover a boulder, never leave it up in the material for any reason. Never turn your back on it and be sure your rock man knows about it.

In getting it out of the material and into the back of the hole you can suck around it, but my experience has shown me that the nozzle man must always rest one arm against the boulder. The reason is that you can feel any small movement and if the boulder falls out unexpectedly you have something to push off against. This situation is also one that requires you and your rock man to be aware of where your air lines are at all times. A boulder will, can, and has pinched off a divers air supply. If you get pinned by a boulder you are instantly in an emergency situation. You and your partner better know how to buddy breath.

I think I got too ambitious in my reply and am guilty of possibly taking this thread off topic, which was divers and helpers pay. Besides, my fingers are getting tired, I didn't mean to write a book here. I realized this because I was also thinking of taking my reply even further by addressing both rock man and sluice tender. Better stop while I am ahead.

[easy goer]

Jim

Thanks for the reply, when your fingers aren't tired please type some more! I know every situation is different but I was curious whether it was a day rate regardless of whether any gold was found, plus a share of the box. I guess anything is negotiable but was curious about what is customary.
Again, I know its not legal advice but I am curious about liability? I wonder if they are receiving a straight percentage could they be considered an independent contractor?
While this is a serious endeavor, its not worth risking a huge lawsuit for essentially an expensive hobby. Of course I would like to find gold and turn a profit but realistically if it were that easy everyone would do it.

Easygoer

[Micropedes1]

Easy, I have been known to run two separate 3-man crews. But the lead man on the other crew is always an experienced dredger. If I work on his crew a while, I defer to him. Avoids hard feelings.

However, I have run a crew where everyone remained at their assigned spot. Rock man and nozzle operator got 15%, sluice tender, much less. Your rock man can make or break consistent production. He needs to anticipate the nozzle man’s needs. I have even run underwater comms to facilitate their interaction. It is indispensable in fast water, deep water, and under the ice.

I am guilt of the lazy man’s dredging Jim speaks of. I remember some 15 years ago on the Klamath, working overburden some 20 feet deep. Throw the nozzle face down sucking gravel off of bedrock and catch the cobbles as they crept down the incline. “Loomers” high up in the wall were ALWAYS winched and rolled back as soon as enough was exposed to hold a sling. Safety first.

[Jim_Alaska]

Glen, your last reply spoke of the rock man, you are right about the value of a good rock man. He has the capacity to increase production or slow it down, which affects everyone's bottom line.

I have to tell you about my rock man. This sounds like he is my only one and he is. I would never expect another person to match the work ethic, knowledge, ability and genuine friendship of this man. The friendship part is not to be overlooked, it makes everything go smoother.

In the beginning of our relationship I was working with a partner and dear friend on the Klamath near Happy Camp. My partner is a long time professional dredger by the name of Lee Kracher, or as he is known on the forum: socalgold.

This new guy came down and said that the New 49'ers office staff had sent him down to see us because he wanted to learn about suction dredge mining and he knew nothing about it, but wanted to learn. He was tall and a bit over 400 pounds. Just hit town from Florida and said he was here to learn about dredging and to lose weight. His weight loss plan was simple, cold water, hard work, and long hours.

He said if we were willing to teach him he would work for no cut of our operation. He just really wanted to learn and did bring a little to contribute to the operation, he was a certified diver and had a burning desire to learn suction dredging.

We were not in production mode at that time and were sampling to find a decent pay streak, so we had time to spare. My dredge partner, Lee moved on due to other commitments and I continued with teaching the new guy. This was not a problem because Lee and I were actually working two dredges, so his leaving didn't affect me.

I won't go into all the specifics of teaching this new guy, we all know what this entails. What I would like to address is his mindset and acquired abilities. This guy was not simply brute strength, although he was exceptionally strong, he also had a brain and was continually planning, plotting and analyzing. It was not long until he found his preferred place in our small crew. He was a born rock man and he quickly honed his rock moving skills to perfection. He didn't want the nozzle except under special circumstances and wanted nothing to do with clean-up.

Over time he developed his own unique system, which worked well for him and even more so for the nozzle man, (me). In hauling equipment and setting up in the river he always took all the heavy stuff himself, leaving me with just smaller things and getting into my wet suit.

As I began setting up the dredge to begin, he was immediately in the water and moving rocks that would allow me to just start with the nozzle once I got the dredge running. He cleared cobbles and larger rocks so fast that all I had to do is start dredging.

Once I began he would move rocks ahead of me where I would be working soon. He knew and understood the importance of not "clouding out" the nozzle man. So he worked from side to side ahead of me, always making sure that when I was on the left he was on the right and any muddy water was away from me.

Once I was uncovering more rocks and cobbles he was right at my side picking rocks out of my way. When a large rock is pulled out of the side of the hole it will cloud the hole badly. He was ways careful to allow me to suck material away from the rock so he could simply pick it out of the face of the hole without clouding me out. Many times I would be working the nozzle with one hand and picking cobbles as they appeared with the other. Most of the time I never even had to throw the cobble, he was right there to take it our of my hand.

Many dredgers and rock men are guilty of just throwing rocks and cobbles haphazardly behind them, which in very short order causes the cobble pile to begin to creep toward the crew and cause the hole to become cramped. This becomes even more unworkable once you try to move boulders to the back of the hole, then the hole quickly becomes cramped. If that happens then boulders must be moved up and out of the hole, making for lost time and more effort.The proven method of throwing cobbles, by either the rock man or nozzle man is to throw them as hard and as far as you can behind you, preferably right out of the hole to begin with.

This guy came to this realization very quickly and devised his own method which was not only unique, but very effective. Weighing in at just over 400 pounds he was a really big guy. In dredging or diving you come to the realization very quickly that fat is buoyant, so you need more weight than someone smaller. But this guy used his size to his advantage. He never wore more than twenty pounds of lead unless we worked very fast water. Twenty pounds made him just about neutral buoyancy, which was a help to his movements.

So, as we worked he would stack cobbles in his arms and then take a giant leap to the back of the hole and throw the armload as far as he could. In this way it freed up the bedrock in the hole so that boulders could just be moved to the rear. In moving boulders many times I would try to help, only to see an upheld had, which meant, (I got it). For me to try to help him at this point only got in his way and he always said that once he started to move a boulder he didn't want anyone in the way that he had to be responsible for the safety of.
So, that is the story of my rock man. It is been fourteen years since he came wanting to learn dredging. I would not want for a better rock man, he is the best I have seen.

At times when I was not dredging he was on his own and hired out to other dredgers, some were even working an eight inch dredge. He was so fast that a couple of dredgers tried to beat him by trying to dredge faster than he could move the rocks, it didn't work, he was that fast.

So when Glen wrote that your rock man can make or break you, I thought I needed to give credit where credit is due, my rock man is the best.

[Joe S (AK)]

I have met Jim's "Rock Man" - and he is every bit exactly as Jim has described him.

A major asset to any mining operation as well as a valued friend.

Joe

[Jim_Alaska]

He remembers and likes you too Joe. he really wanted to stop by and see you last November, but you were still in Alaska.

[Joe S (AK)]

Actually, Jim, I was twisting in the wind in northern Canada with a bent trailer axle and a 100% missing wheel assembly that had to be rebuilt from parts.

Time and money fixed the trailer but it took a L O N G week and it meant that I just missed seeing you two.

Oh, in Fort St. John in November there isn't much to do other than go to the library and read, read, read.

If you ever get a chance to do that don't, don't, don't!

So now - what doesn't kill me makes me stronger - and I seem to be getting stronger and stronger every year!

Joe